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5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek

Posted by xsubdude99 
5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 02, 2018 07:31PM
Hi All,

Check it out. 5 rec boat kayakers rescued from Silver Creek. Looks like some good candidates for spring clinic.

Bob

[www.lex18.com]
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 05, 2018 01:40PM
Why does this not surprise me - perhaps because I see it in the southeast increasingly! Since Wal-Mart, dicks sporting goods, etc has began selling "rec" types boats this danger in on the rise. American whitewater, Charley Walbridge, has been emphasizing this type of thing lately, but to limited audience since AW has only about 6000 members since many boaters refuse to pay the price of a quality case of beer for better river access, better water quality, and boater education! Also, the fact that "rescuers " used propeller driven craft in silver creek shows their lack of education also. !
B. J.- Kayak bum and river guide



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2018 01:48PM by bj196321.
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 05, 2018 01:47PM
A raft with 3-4 good paddlers could have done "rescue" much more efficiently and quicker without damaging at least two propeller blades and much safer! Perhaps the BWA should take advantage of this situation and approach lex 18 or other local Lexington stations and do a segment on REAL kayak safety and education - would be good PR for the BWA!!!

B. J. - kayak bum and river guide
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 05, 2018 01:57PM
If we want to do something about this situation, what we should do is form a swiftwater rescue team to be available for rescues of this sort. If there were enough members on the team, then a few of them could be at any particular site in Lexington or surrounding counties quickly.

It's a thought, one I've had before, but it would require someone to really get behind the idea and push.

_

Hanley Loller


"It's plum amazing what you can do when you damn well got no choice."
--Rickie Dale Larson
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 05, 2018 04:10PM
I would not get involved in any rescue operation as a matter of any kind of public service. Too much liability. Again, I am not a fan of rec boats and believe the marketing of them as sufficient for class II - III water to be folly. From the view of the helicopter, those folks were on fast moving flat water. Barely class II, although for an inexperienced paddler, it was probably terrifying because they were out of control on very easy water. But, I had the same kind of experience when I was young in an aluminum canoe in high water and learned the hard way back in the day. Eventually I went to the BWA roll sessions and learned a roll and then went out and got my butt kicked on rivers with my buddies, like Mike Clark etc.
Brent
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 05, 2018 05:15PM
What a good idea Hanley!

B. J. - kayak bum and river guide
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 05, 2018 05:46PM
I actually agree with both of you! Hanley has a good idea, but Brent is correct also. Too bad that in the effort to help someone that liability should even be a concern!!!!! This is the world that we live in.

B. J. - kayak bum and river guide
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 05, 2018 08:44PM
BWA folks have been asked to assist rescue personnel in the past. I remember BWA legendary filmmaker John Davis, witnessing a potential collateral accident with ill equipped and untrained first responders while shooting video for WKYT TV at the scene of a body recovery after a drowning on Boone Creek. The creek was still running high as John was videoing the rescue Keystone Cops begin to climb into an aluminum canoe without flotation, using Kmart paddles and horse collar pfds. John, who was an experienced class 4 c-boater, said he just had to put down his camera and talk them out of it. He gave them the phone number of a couple of BWA paddlers to contact, Charles Andre and Mike Weeks who came out, paddled around the strainers (that would have surely nailed the clueless) quickly found the body and then helped with the recovery.

This was back in the early 80s and first responder river rescue has become way more sophisticated since then but is still often inefficient, using elaborate, time consuming, flat water-motorized solutions to what should be simple river search and rescues.

Perhaps the BWA could consider funding a river rescue clinic for central KY first responders in Fayetteville, Madison and Franklin counties? It might also be a good thing if we were to point them to AW’s River Pages for the rivers that are paddled locally to help with access logistics and general information about the streams. Maybe some of us in the BWA who live nearby and know these streams well, could make ourselves available to help if asked? I could volunteer for that.

barryg
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 06, 2018 11:29AM
There are many levels of possibility for this kind of thing. I do agree with Brent that I would not want such a rescue team to simply be a volunteer outfit doing good for the sake of doing good. I think it would have to be professional on some level so that the actions of such a team would be covered by the city or county in the same way other first responders' actions are.

However, once again I want to re-iterate that this is all just useless talk unless someone is willing to get behind the idea and really push. I've got way too many other irons in the air (which get in the way of my balls in the fire) to even consider it. A push like this would be very involved and require some dedicated and diplomatic individual to take it on and shepherd it through to it's conclusion. So, it's a decent idea, but who's going to bell the cat?

_

Hanley Loller


"It's plum amazing what you can do when you damn well got no choice."
--Rickie Dale Larson
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 07, 2018 09:56AM
I agree with all of you, however I still think it would be an opportune time to perhaps see if any local news channels would be interested in airing a segment/s on boater safety on white water rivers/creeks near Lexington and inform public that there is the BWA to help with more detailed instruction and boater safety! The safety coordinator could do this with a brief phone call initially! Most deaths and emergencies happen on class II and class III water (See AW for statistics), so the higher class water has little to do with those situations
B. J. - kayak bum and river guide
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 07, 2018 10:09AM
P. S.: I firmly believe in the old saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". Thank goodness I live and work on a river where if someone gets in trouble I KNOW that there will be raft guides and hard boaters that will without hesitation or concern of "liability" will do everything possible to help!!!!!
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 10, 2018 08:48AM
You know BJ, that's not a fair analogy. That's directly implying that boaters, specifically those of us discussing liability, wouldn't do the same thing. Frankly, I've assisted far too many people in distress on the river both as a raft guide and as a boater to merit that kind of talk.

When raft guides help folks out they are often the first or only folks on the scene. Add to that the fact that they are trained (hopefully, if the company is doing their job right) and acting within the context of their job. Boaters coming up on this lot would certainly have helped without being consumed by liability concerns. Boaters are generally a helpful bunch, if you don't count the Ocoee. winking smiley

HOWEVER, there is a big difference between that and creating a semi- (or fully-) professional swiftwater response team to assist EMS in circumstances like this. I may be out of the loop, but I don't know of raft guides on any river that have formed such an outfit to be called upon by EMS. If I am mistaken, please correct me. If not, then please refrain from suggesting that somehow those of us on here discussing the liability aspects of going several steps beyond simply assisting on the spot when assistance is called for are somehow cowardly or unwilling to act.

I know that may not be what you intended to say, but it is, in fact, the direct implication of what you actually said.

_

Hanley Loller


"It's plum amazing what you can do when you damn well got no choice."
--Rickie Dale Larson
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 11, 2018 08:52AM
Wasn't implying anything, but was just saying that I am fortunate to live in an area where guides/boaters will not worry about "liability" to help someone! An example would be during floods in Texas last year several guides went down and "rescued" numerous people and "liability" simply did not cross their minds. They were not "professional", I guess, but were very efficient in helping people.

B. J. - kayak bum and river guide
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 11, 2018 08:03PM
BJ. I've been sitting here and looking at your last statement and have to take issue with it. I think I understand where your head and heart are in that statement but I want to let you in on where I am on the liability issue.

First, like you, I live in an area where people are very willing to help out others. The place is called Lexington.

Have you ever been in on a deposition that questions the care given from one person to another? I have and let me tell you that it is not pretty. I was. The deposition was not about me but I was called because I was in the room It was not pretty. The complaint was called because of overstepping boundaries.

The environment was hospital but regardless of hospital, river, or roadside, it all matters. Maybe I am a bad person but there have been a couple of times since that I have had the liability issue in my head when I gave assistance. I am fortunate and the victim was fortunate that I was well within my experience and abilities.

Yeah, there are Good Samaritan laws but they only cover situations that are within my abilities and expertise. If I start playing outside of that, I have set myself up for a potential rocky road ahead, regardless of the fact that I was only trying to help.

Now the good side of it: RN's are required to do a certain minimum of hours of continuing education every year. The other thing is that I learned to think my way through situations instead of just reacting to them. Thinking of a proper response is not hesitation. It is looking at the situation, evaluating the need, and developing a plan to address the need. And later, process what was done, right/wrong, and consider plan for 'next time'.

So, would I consider liabilities? While a practicing RN I was aware that if I did wrong, not matter how well the intention, I was at risk to lose my ability to earn a living and support my family at the level that we were accustomed to. So the answer is yes, sure did. And I have already said that I have had the good fortune to not have to 'push it'.. I admit that I have been keenly aware that I may have to answer with 'I was trying to help' if I was being held accountable to the charge of assault. Know your limitations. There have been plenty of people who have been killed out of kindness.

Dallas

Tattooed and Retired
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 12, 2018 08:40AM
BJ, you were and are implying something that you probably should have considered before firing off that first statement. Go back and re-read it and think about what it says. You say you are thankful to live and work on a river where guides/boaters won't hesitate to help someone because of the spectre of liability? Exactly where do you think the rest of us live and what do you think we do when we find someone in need of help?

You can say that you didn't mean to imply something, but you did, in fact, make that implication. Don't say that you didn't or weren't doing it, you did. We can all see it and read it.


FYI: The BWA was represented in the Houston flooding too, and I lent my raft out to a BWA member who went down there to help. Once again, there is a difference between assisting and discussing the possibility of putting together a professional response team, and a whole separate level of liability associated with it. In fact, it would be irresponsible to have that discussion without talking about liability.


I worked in the whitewater rafting industry too from 1987 through the early 2000's and let me tell you, liability was a constant issue of discussion at any company that maintained a level of professionalism and mandated safety standards and training. If you work for a rafting company that doesn't address the issue of liability with their guides, then I would say that company is doing a disservice to their guides. The vast majority of professional full-time river guides I have known are all highly conscious of liability, and also more than willing to help out when they come upon someone in distress. The two are not mutually exclusive.

_

Hanley Loller


"It's plum amazing what you can do when you damn well got no choice."
--Rickie Dale Larson
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 12, 2018 05:53PM
Again, you are assuming on what think was "implied" instead of what was actually stated. You are reading much of what is between the lines in your own mind. Never said that anyone in lex, BWA, or anywhere else would not help someone if needed! That is your assumption and it not correct or what was stated. As an individual I personally do not have the "liability" concern when someone is in danger need of help!
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 13, 2018 08:40AM
You know BJ, I've said that I didn't think your intentions were bad, and I'm not going to keep arguing with you over this, mostly because you're obviously not reading through what Dallas or I have written.

I'll just leave you with this. I could say in response to you something like, "I'm just glad I live in a place where intelligent people will listen to what I have to say" and you would probably be offended, and rightfully so. You don't have to read between the lines, the direct implication of that statement would be calling you stupid. It's not a debatable point, it's a backhanded insult. You would have every right to react badly to that.

For the record, that is NOT what I am saying. That is simply an illustration of my point.

Think about that. I'm more than willing to hear you say that you didn't mean to imply something, or that you regret implying it, but don't tell me you didn't do it. That's just as insulting as the original statement.

_

Hanley Loller


"It's plum amazing what you can do when you damn well got no choice."
--Rickie Dale Larson
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 13, 2018 09:02AM
For the last time you are basing an assumption of what you perceived to be "implied", and your assumption is wrong! I guess I could have said I'm thankfully to live in an area now where guides/people will help someone in need as well as they did when I lived in lex, but of course that would leave out other places I have lived also. So your your assumption in not correct. Now you bring "intelligence " into your debacle! Perhaps you need to argue your own "implications"!
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 13, 2018 09:14AM
Wear a mask and a cape. They can't sue the Batman!

Robert W.
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 13, 2018 09:26AM
I have said my piece, and you have actually proven my point. I will say no more.

_

Hanley Loller


"It's plum amazing what you can do when you damn well got no choice."
--Rickie Dale Larson
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 13, 2018 10:16AM
Think I will wade into this discussion since I have been engaged in civil litigation and trial practice for almost 32 years. I have done everything from ordinary car wrecks, to complicated products cases and medical malpractice cases. I have practiced both plaintiff and defense throughout the years. I am very focused on legal liability issues as a matter of my career.

In particular, I want to expand upon what Dallas has said. He is right. He has more exposure to a screw up in a Good Samaritan situation than I do, because once he is involved, he is held to the standard of care of a trauma nurse. Fortunately for most of us, he is damn good, perhaps one of the best around. I on the other hand, have no certifiable training in anything, including CPR, on purpose and despite training, and Good Samaritan will more likely protect me than him. He also has to stay with the patient to hand him off to another care-giver with equal or better training. I don't. I always decline my certification for swiftwater training and CPR. I try to stay current with my skills notwithstanding.

In fact, the people I most respect with respect to saving my ass or in a body retrieval situation for a buddy, are my untrained, un-certified friends that I have paddled extremely difficult rivers with and I know and have witnessed their ability to rise to the occasion to help out a friend in need. That is because they are out there, understand hazards and water, intimately, and that is something you learn from being out there. Not saying swiftwater training does not help, it does, but really the safety training that happens most often is just being out there with your buddies on challenging rivers.

I do not support organized safety events or activities for the BWA unless we are insured and focused, such as the Spring Clinic. Even for Swiftwater Training we sub that out to folks that do that stuff. It is not a BWA official event, nor should it be without doing what we do for the Spring Clinic.. I see no need for us to ever offer a safety service to any group unless it is to invite them to a Swiftwater Training course or the Spring Clinic. Liability is a legitimate issue. I understand BJs point that he wishes it wasn't so. But, that is a complicated legal philosophical debate better saved for a law school class room. But, liability doesn't stop me from helping friends in time of need, and that is what Hanley is saying I think.

Secondly, the whole rescue situation for these five people with no skills was lame. I think it has been blown out of proportion. You can see the river is not super dangerous, just fast moving. Yeah, you can drown about anywhere, but that section of water was nothing like the Ocoee for example, class III. It did not even look near as hard as Powerhouse on the Pigeon. Anyway, ok, they got rescued regardless of the conditions. Whoopty do! They were unwise, unskilled and got scared. Officials never know what they are doing. Nothing new there. Agree with Bob, maybe they are good candidates for the Spring Clinic. Got to admire their sense of adventure. I started the same kinda way, but in different crappy boats back in the day.

I do not believe in organized led trips by the BWA for the same liability reasons. I don't support a BWA raft or boating equipment that anyone can use and check out. I don't support providing official services to any government entity, but am happy to help and often go it alone without regard to them. I know it was the kayakers that were best able to look for and ultimately find Jon Lord. I know it was the kayakers that were best able to look for and ultimately find Scott Bradfield. I know that official folks have tapped James Stapleton and Steve Ruth to assist in river rescues. That is fine.

So, let's all hug, go boating and bring a throw rope to help those in need. You won't get sued.

Brent
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 13, 2018 11:37AM
Personal preparedness and responsibility are peoples best chance and that group had neither. We can discuss liability till our faces turn blue but I have never seen people rescue/not rescue someone for fear of liability. Funny this topic gets hot as we consider doing a paddler SWR class at the RF next month.

Training and paddling as much as you can are the ways to be prepared. I have been in commercial boating for 3 decades and swr for 2 and the idea of "the call" is not built in reality. If there is time to make a phone call the rescue will happen without you or its a body recovery. I haven't received that call and after some discussion I bolted out the door to provide support to the fire & rescue folks that they didn't have. On even a heavily commercially run river, a call for a response of assistance means everything broke down in trying to assist on the river. Again on or off the river ive never heard of liability stopping or causing a rescue.

I get these calls from the fire & rescue teams that previously I have trained and nobody wants to get them. Its a very helpless feeling unless you are literally already near the stream and It tugs at your inner peace for days if a fatality occurs. I have assisted in recovering unfortunate folks lost to the water and that is a part of the task people don't consider either. Professional emotional and mental well being support for responders is thankfully there for those folks who don't experience positive outcomes in their responses.

Most firefighters are more trained in SWR than most boaters (including in Madco/Fayette co), but are poor at water rescue. My biggest concern common in nearly every response i have been on site for or helped do a review for, the unhealthy/obese rescuers and those who don't buckle their life jackets. I don't want those people coming in to rescue me at all. One dirty secret is that they don't want you there unless you are with responding agencies because they cant operate outside of their command structure and wouldn't be able to place you into it quickly and effectively. You aren't going to yell at the Chief and convince him you and your kayak or raft are inserting yourself into a rescue and could get arrested for doing it after being told not to.

I have specific instructions for the folks who are the most concerned with me returning home after boating. They know who to call and it isnt any official agency or rescue team and I know some of the best teams in the world at that.
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 18, 2018 08:02PM
Dudes, I am glad at least two intelligent people got involved in this conversation! Love ya Brent and Jason!
B. J. - kayak bum and river guide
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 19, 2018 10:15AM
OK, late on this one.

Jason is absolutely correct. Even with Professional Rescue people, by the time they intervene in the Swift Water Rescue Timeline, it's most often a body recovery. While the theory of having a Rapid Response Team sounds good, the reality is that if you aren't available at the scene very quickly, it's going to go bad. If you show up at the scene of a Professional Rescue and try to intervene, even if you have superior skills and training, the Incident Commander will most likely forbid you to participate since you are both outside of his command structure and outside of his protocols. If I were on the scene, I would identify myself to the IC and present my credentials, but only offer advice if he asked for it.

I will have to agree with Brent on the fact that this wasn't a life threatening event, or the Fire Dept would have been recovering bodies instead of victims.

Jason and I, and presumably BJ, all operate under a Standard of Care for our trades. I've never let concerns about liability hinder me from participating in a rescue. I have also walked away from rescue attempts that were doing stuff stupid and dangerous. And I never interfere with a Commercial trips rescue unless directly asked since they usually have a system in place.

Larry Cable

"All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the Flintlock of your Musket".
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 20, 2018 12:29PM
its been a good conversation BJ that's important i think. Its unfair to those guys to be so judgmental brother I think we all have the best intentions by participating in the convo. I think everyone here are intelligent dudes/dudettes that have proven to me the point that all boaters are likely to jump and be willing to help if able and safe to do so. I think that is what we all said in different ways in beating this dead horse haha!

We all say things occasionally that doesn't read or sound right and i didn't characterize fire & rescue well and I regret that myself. A couple of days ago I saw the guys at the Engine station on the Winchester bypass rigging water rescue systems. Id like to point out that those guys practice their skills when not responding.

See you on the Pig soon as the RF drops out too low for trips. Well have another cold one at the new public take out!
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 25, 2018 08:59PM
I agree with you Jason Foley! I think most boaters will "jump in" at the opportune time also. That is why I love living in this place! I learned that in Lexington and other places. At least I can trust boaters! That is what my mentors tought me! You are one of them. Do not connect the BWA with any type of rescue situation! Do it at "volunteer" level such as "volunteer" fireman, which ky has now! And, is covered by some type of "liability" coverage! Think !

B. J. - kayak bum and river guide!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2018 09:01PM by bj196321.
Re: 5 Kayakers rescued from Silver Creek
April 25, 2018 09:52PM
For the record: I did mention rescue type squads, liability, or such in the first place! Love y'all!
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